sSara (00:05)

Empowered people make informed decisions that lead to living a life without regret. This is Sara Khaki and Shawna Woods from Atlanta Divorce Law Group. And this is the Happily Ever After Divorce Podcast. Welcome to another episode of the Happily Ever After Divorce Podcast. I am Sara Khaki with Atlanta Divorce Law Group and I’m joined by our very own managing partner Shawna Woods. Shawna, we’re going to talk about today, relationships, marriages, partnerships.

Intimate relationships in any shape or form that may or may not have physical intimacy involved. Can a relationship, an intimate relationship, make it without sex?

sShawna (00:46)

I think that’s a really great question and one that I encountered very early on in my career and this one was situational but it did get me thinking about you know types of relationships that we have and types of relationships we expect to have and the way it was presented was there was an what we would definitely now call a gray divorce that had come to me and very early on in my career and this lady had to be know 85.

If I’m remembering correctly. And she was saying that she wanted to divorce because of her husband’s quote, sexual demands. And I was very kind of not only curious, but what do you mean? Are you hurting? What’s going on? And this woman was just like, at my age, I no longer want to have sex. I’m past the time I found that. And I don’t think that he should demand that of me. And so I did think, thinking through

Not anybody should demand sex from anyone else, but thinking through, can you have an intimate relationship? Can you have a marriage if one person wants sexual activity and the other person either doesn’t want it at all or has a very low sex drive? And what does that look like? Because there’s obviously other things to a marriage than sex. But is it the sexual activity that is the glue?

Or is the structure that holds everything together, I guess, is when you start looking at these questions.

sSara (02:19)

So I think when people think about sex in a relationship, is one of the strongest ways of feeling intimate with somebody. But I also believe there’s other ways to be very intimate with somebody. One of my favorite authors from the, I think he’s from the 1930s, but it’s Wallace Wattles. And in the book called Science of Getting Rich, he says,

We live for the mind, the soul and the body. And neither one of them has a higher value than the other. They have to all be in balance. And when we were thinking about the topic for today, I thought to myself, the currencies of intimacy, does it always have to be exchanged in the form of a physical touch in the form of the body? Could there also be relationships where the intimacy is in through the mind? There is just such a intimate.

Mind connection, intimate intellectual connection of the depth of conversations that can be had, the deep thinking that can be exposed that you may not be able to comfortably share with other people. Same with the soul, where you can emotionally just open yourself up to somebody in a way that you can’t to anybody else and that’s reciprocated. And then the body, just the appreciation of the physical, the feeling wanted.

Physically and wanting and desiring somebody physically. Think they’re all three almost go hand in hand. But thinking about Wallace Wattles quote from his book, thinking about sex and wanting intimacy with somebody, I do think that you can have intimacy in a marriage without sex through these other channels. But are we missing

One of the top three, because if we’re looking at it as those three things need to go hand in hand, the mind, the body, and the soul, to fully be enriched, can we skip over the body?

sShawna (04:28)

I think it’s a great question. You can skip over the body and there’s many reasons why somebody who normally enjoys sex may not be enjoying sex for a while in a relationship. These could be physical, these could be emotional. Quite frankly, you’re just tired. But I think what we’re thinking about is the deeper, this hasn’t been going on for a long time. We haven’t had sex for months, we haven’t had sex for a year.

sSara (04:56)

We have clients who haven’t had sex for years.

sShawna (04:59)

Yeah.

And that is always curious to me when somebody has told me, know, I, well, we haven’t really been intimate for five or more years. And I am sorry, just living as roommates. And most of the time they do say yes. All right. They’re not sharing the other influences. So to your question in that aspect, if you lose the body, do you lose the other two? Right. And I do think it goes back to the reason why, right.

Why are we not, why is this person not enjoying, you know, physical intimacies? And there is a subset of the population that we call asexual that simply does not enjoy sex or reports not to be sexually attracted to men or women. They just don’t feel that urge. There’s no sexual desire. Don’t crushes, you know, normal like we do.

People who are attractive to people, but that’s a very small percent of the population. We’re talking about 1 % of the population. So if you find yourself in a marriage that either was sexual at one point or is simply not sexual, you probably want to start looking for other reasons, whether it’s yourself or whether it’s your partner who’s not into.

You know, into this kind of intimacy. And there’s so many reasons that it can be, you know, that you’re looking for it. But to back to the question, can you have a relationship without that component? I think a lot of, at least women, I know, have those kind of bonds and friendships with their friends. Right. And I think that you do see this a whole lot more in women than you do men where we bond intellectually.

Bond emotionally. How many guys do you know will have a sleepover where three guys are going to end up in the same bed and it’s not sexual? Right. Probably all the guys are out there like, what just happened?

sSara (07:02)

Friends to cuddle over a movie and right if two men are gay and they did that that would be awkward socially wouldn’t be as awkward for two women friends to do that

sShawna (07:12)

Absolutely. So I do think that is a very acceptable way to be emotionally and spiritually and intellectually attracted to somebody and not have sex. But I think what we’re talking about is sex without our relationships without sex when you’re supposed to. I’m putting supposed to in quotations here. When you’re supposed to be having sex and how does that affect the relationship? Now,

You’ve been married a long time. And I’m going to go out on a limb and say that sometimes, you know, over the years sex has waned and grown and that’s a normal part of marriage, right? When, not for your relationship in particular, but when do you think in a married couple’s life it’s time to do that gut check to say, it’s been too long, what’s going on?

sSara (08:05)

I think most relationships face conflicts over three things. It’s either a power dynamic, a financial dynamic, or a sex dynamic. Those are where most of our human dark sides lie, where we might be keeping a secret, or might be holding something back about ourselves that we’re ashamed to because of something happened in our childhood. It’s either something to do with power, money, or sex.

We’ve talked about this before when we talked about financial infidelity, where people have money stories they bring to the marriage, right? Some people grew up in a household where the family spent more money to feel like they had money, and you’re mad at married somebody who actually felt better off when they saved, and not spending money was a way to feel like you have money. When those two people come into a household together, a conflict’s created.

Same thing I believe happens when you have two people coming into a marriage with different stories or rules or shame or guilt that they have around sex, right? So if you have somebody, for instance, in my culture, in the Middle Eastern culture, stereotyping, generally speaking, from my experience, I can’t speak for the entire region, but I can speak for my family’s culture, sex isn’t something you talked about.

With your parents. Sex wasn’t something that, you know, your mother was going to come and have that conversation with you. That is very common in the Western culture that you always say, okay, so have you had to talk with your child like, if you had said that to a Middle Eastern mom back when I was growing up, they’re like, what are you talking? Are you out of your mind? Like, it’s insane. Even a menstrual cycle would be a very big conversation to be happy to have with a child. So it’s more like figured out as you go and like,

It’s a little embarrassing. There’s an embarrassing component to it. There’s that. There’s also this sense of, you know, don’t know Middle Eastern classic conservative Middle Eastern family would expect that their child or their daughter for the most part would have pre-marital relationships and have a pre-marital sex. So you combine all these things and you most likely have these girls who are getting married.

And have no… And they might have had desires growing up, but when they marry their spouse, they have no clue what happens next. And there was never anybody who really talked about it. And now that even though the permission is there, the family permission is there, all the right things have happened, how do you unprogram somebody who their entire life was taught that this is not something I talk about, this is an embarrassing thing.

sShawna (10:32)

Clue.

sSara (10:59)

I’m not supposed to show my body to all sudden be comfortable being naked in front of a man and know what to do and know what to do about those all those feelings. So that’s just one example. I’m giving us so many different examples of how the story of your childhood or what you were taught about whether it’s money, sex or power place into the marriage. And at some point for the marriage to make it.

These family stories need to come up. The truth about these family stories, what, I mean, it goes the same thing. I can flip the coin and talk about men. What fantasies were permitted for men to have growing up, right? Men have certain fantasies that if they are raised a certain way, they’re told this is not okay to have, this is not healthy, you need to squash that really quick, or.

The frequency of your desires is too much, right? This is unhealthy. So at some point we’re all, we kind of shaped ourselves and try to color ourselves within the lines as much as possible to be accepted by our family and then by our community. And then hopefully, know, assess ourselves properly for a acceptable good marriage that positions ourselves for success. This is from a very instinctual perspective, right? And now,

These two people, what are they supposed to do? Just live happily ever after? Well, that’s why we call it happily ever after divorce, just to poke a little bit of fun at this whole concept. There is a lot of programming that needs to be unraveled for these two to comfortably say, here’s what my deepest, darkest desires are. Here’s the frequency of what I want. Here’s the satisfaction of what I want.

It takes a lot of honesty and vulnerability to have that confrontation. Think marriages that make it at some point have to have that conversation. I’m not saying that there’s not those couples out there, because I 100 % believe they are, that were so comfortable in their skin from day one, so comfortable with their sexual desires that before marriage, they knocked that out of the park and never had trouble. But we’re right now talking about the ones that had trouble.

Right, and have had trouble in this department and might have just squashed this desire to the point of not saying, know what, I don’t even want this anymore. I would say for the most part, there is probably a something being hidden or something being put away and being ignored and being blocked that probably comes from something from childhood or a family story of how you’re supposed to feel about sex. And now you’re very uncomfortable sharing that with your partner.

sShawna (13:50)

You brought up a very interesting concept that I very strongly believe is that when a child is shamed for natural sexual desires that it often turns into sexual deviance. And this happens a lot of time in very strict household, very religious households that have basically don’t have sex till you’re married and we’re not going to talk about it with you. Kind of concepts. And I was raised in a religion that was very similar to that.

No, and I do think that it does affect a person’s sexuality as you’re growing into intimacy especially when You’re you know, you’ve expressed I love this person. I want them to expect me I want them to see me as desirable and vulnerable in them to take care of me both ways, right? Right, but to say certain things out loud you were taught were shameful was not something, you know either

sSara (14:39)

Hey.

sShawna (14:49)

You were supposed to experience or only bad people were, you know, wanted whatever it is. And I do think that it really does become a hindrance, you know, for healthy sexual activity in a marriage. And quite frankly, I do think it opens up doors if you do not address these with your partner and if you do not address these with a therapist once you’ve acknowledged that you have these things, they’re not your fault. They were trained in you from childhood.

Nothing that you did contributed to this. Sexual desire is a natural normal part of a human being. So when you have been trained that sexuality is shameful or something happened into your childhood that shamed you, a lot of times that person may have I said have some sexual deviance issues that they have to deal with that could come through porn addictions.

That could come through cheating addictions. That could come through prostitution addictions. So I do think that those are very big things that can come out of something that can be and should be addressed in and of itself. But if you don’t come from a place of shame, if you are one of the very few people out there who had an absolutely happy, healthy childhood, I’m sure they exist.

sSara (16:12)

I’m sure too. It’s like one of the characters met Santa and Santa met the characters.

sShawna (16:13)

Hey

Something along those lines. If you’ve had this completely natural and normal and you still don’t are interested in sex, I do think there is something that you probably should explore either with your partner or personally with a therapist about is this something that I personally am going to be able to enjoy in my lifetime? And if I’m not, with what frequency am I wanting to engage with this with my partner?

Who wants this?

sSara (16:50)

You know, I think that for so many couples, specifically the ones we speak to, it’s not even the idea of like, I have to have sex in this marriage. A lot of times, specifically for the women, it’s, I want to be physically desired. That is an important thing that I think both men and women actually need. I think men just as much want to be feel, to look.

See desire in their reflection of their woman’s eyes and men and women want the same thing. And this is the ultimate expression of that. Right. Now, what I would can you have a relationship without sex? Yes, of course. You like we said, you can have friendships and all these things. But when we talk about partnership at when you are comfortable completely being seen with all your flaws, with all your desires, with all the things that you

Might try to tone down or keep in the dark from other people and you’re also creating a space for the other person to fully be seen in front of you. If you’re not, doesn’t, not that you can’t have that without sex, but you can’t have that, you can’t have a healthy conversation about the absence of sex. That’s the critical point because there has to be.

Some sort of an understanding from both parts of why is this not part of the marriage? Yes. And if it’s not, is that a deal breaker or not? That’s straightforward. And it may be a completely reason that both people can live with, or it may be that the other side is not fully comfortable being seen in the marriage. And what I personally love about partnership, true partnership, whether it’s in the form of marriage or any form is

It is the ultimate vehicle for self discovery, right? Like by wanting a relationship to work so bad in order so that you, by the love that you have for that marriage or the love you have for your partnership, you’re willing to do the self work on yourself that you discover, whoa, that was what my family’s story was about money. So that’s why I show up in this way. Or whoa, that was my family’s story about sex and physical attraction.

And desire. So that’s why I show up this way. You are able to discover so much more about yourself once you make the commitment to be in that journey of we’re going to grow and learn together about ourselves so we can be better as a team.

sShawna (19:25)

I think that you hit on the key agreement is that the communication has to be open. You have to be willing to understand yourself and not shame yourself and willing to not shame the other person, which we have a gut reaction to do when we feel rejected. Right. If someone’s rejecting you sexually, you certainly have a tendency to be like, what’s wrong with you?

Right. And I think that when we’re talking about these very intricate issues, before it gets to the place where you’re sitting across from one of us and you’re telling us, I haven’t even thought about sex in five years, it is so very important to have these conversations with your spouse to say, you know, we used to have sex two, three times a week. Now it’s two, three times a month, or maybe it’s once or twice a year.

And this is bothering me. Is this bothering you? Open any upset dialogue to have that conversation about what it is that’s going on. Sometimes people believe their partner is cheating. So they’ve shut down emotionally, mentally, definitely sexually and their partner may not be cheating. It may be something else that’s going on work related, childhood related, something else. So if you are not having sex in your relationship and that is something that isn’t

Important to you before you get to us. Therapy and talking with your partner is so essential and it can really revive that initial attraction that let’s go on dates again. Let’s do those little things that are intimate without being intimate, without having sex, right? Doing those little things that lead up to usually the sexual activity.

But stopping short of it just to make sure, we on the same page? Right? OK, you’re not ready? That’s fine. We’re going to do this again tomorrow.

sSara (21:33)

And it takes a level of truly wanting to be present and give to your partner in order to do this because a lot of times we avoid this conversation because we’re so afraid of hearing something that’s a reflection on us that we don’t want to hear. Giving your partner the space to be honest about their fantasies, their desires, their likes, their don’t likes, why they are willing to participate in physical intimacy with you or not.

We are ego is so nervous about hearing something that’s going to hurt it that we are more willing to make assumptions, make sometimes even wild assumptions about it without and not and stay away from the truth because we’re scared the truth is going to hurt us. That’s from a taking place. But if you can truly be giving and remove, not take it personal and remove yourself from the picture and just say, there is something here that if I can be supportive of.

And truly create space to hear how much more intimacy can you even have from that process.

sShawna (22:37)

If you can be that one person for your person, that does create that bubble, that creates that it is you and I and we’re in this together and we’re going to get through this together. It creates such a stronger bond. Thank you.

sSara (22:54)

Thank you,