sSara (00:05)

Empowered people make informed decisions that lead to living a life without regret. This is Sara Khaki and Shawna Woods from Atlanta Divorce Law Group. And this is the Happily Ever After Divorce Podcast. Welcome to the Happily Ever After Divorce Podcast. I’m Sara Khaki with Atlanta Divorce Law Group and I’m joined by our very own managing partner Shawna Woods. Shawna, what I wanted to talk to you about today comes from a series of my own personal experiences of being in a place of being in the dark.

Emotionally being in a dark place. And I’ve kind of observed myself over the years of when I decide to share that dark place I’m in, whether it’s something I’m going on, going through with my family or with work or just personal, all that is personal, but something that is I’m trying to figure out, right? And when do I share it? Who do I share it with? And what do I share?

This is an interesting concept for me because I’m a pretty private person. I think for a lot of people, there’s some people that will hear this and say, well, I would share everything with everybody. If they’re my friend, I would share everything with. If they’re in my life, I would share everything with. I don’t think that’s the case for a lot of people.

sShawna (01:22)

And why do you think that is?

sSara (01:25)

I think that as we grow older, our circle, we’ve talked about the circle of trust, our circle of trust usually grows a little tighter and we become more in tune with who is in that circle of trust and who is more in the parameters of it and then who’s more in your community and what’s appropriate to share, what’s not appropriate to share.

Now, I think when we’re talking about our clients, a lot of our divorce clients, it’s also a matter of safety sometimes, or it’s a matter of strategy, right? Like when you’re going through the divorce process, who should you share what with and or emotionally, when are you ready to share with your common friends and family that you guys are going through this? But for me personally, it’s become more of a maturity process. It’s been more of a OK, I know I’m a private person.

And my, I would say most of my years was more about I actually didn’t even share. I would go completely inward in my dark moments. It’s very rare that I would actually share when I was truly in the dark. Maybe years after or months after being out of the dark, I would start sharing. That might, again, I always come back to cultural. I think there might be a little bit of a cultural element to that as well.

My family very much taught that if we’re going through family difficulties, it stays within the family. Right. You can relate to that. Yes. Yes. And if you’re having troubles with your spouse, you solve it, but you don’t bad mouth your spouse. Don’t bad mouth family members outside of the family. You keep it in the family. So there’s a lot of that. And I think a bit of it, too, to like kind of dive deeper into myself is a bit of

sShawna (02:55)

We have talked about this with.

You keep it in the family.

sSara (03:17)

Learning to be more vulnerable, that wasn’t always very easy for me. I always felt like I had to put a very stoic personality. I also felt like I had to be the face of positivity and joy all the time, which quite frankly, I am a naturally positive. I brag about being so optimistic, right? Because I’m so optimistic, I think it’s a good thing to be optimistic.

sShawna (03:40)

Absolutely and just to speak to that I think even in the office, know when you come in there’s always this presence of sunshine and positivity Love to be around you so I can see that if you are in dark space It would be hard to figure out who do I tell this? Not only for Who are they to share it with right which was the inner circle of trust that we had talked about previously But also how is this going to affect?

sSara (03:57)

Right.

sShawna (04:08)

Your mindset or your decision making.

sSara (04:11)

That’s probably the big shift I realized as I got older is who to share what with and when to share it is somewhat about other people. Cause I think growing up, was more about how my impacting my parents or my friends or my family members or community. If they see me in a moment of weakness or a moment of being sad or being in the dark. Now, as I’m older, I’m actually realizing that yes, that’s a nice consideration to have, but

More importantly, how does it impact your own mindset to get yourself out of the rut? So I kind of came up with a strategy, right? I think us women, we love coming up with strategies to deal with our personal problems. I don’t actually, I don’t think that’s unique to women. Think humans, we like to have strategies for dealing with the dark moments.

sShawna (05:03)

I’m going to give it to women. Think women do it more than men.

sSara (05:06)

Probably, yeah. It’s how we find sense of control. It’s finding a strategy. And so yeah, this gives me a sense of control, whether it’s false or not. When I’m in the dark, I’ll take it, right?

sShawna (05:20)

You’ve got to do what’s good for you when you’re in the dark. Yes.

sSara (05:23)

So I’m going to, I’m going to break this down for you. Ready? All right. So when you first find yourself in that moment where you’re either not feeling right or something awful has happened, whether you are in a argument with your spouse, your partner, or with your friend or something didn’t go your way and you’re just crushed and you’re just all up in your feelings in your, it’s in your chest, right? It’s just in your body.

sShawna (05:27)

I’m really looking forward

sSara (05:53)

It feels so terrible. For me, what I have found is that at that moment, you need to be thoughtful of who you share that with. Now, I do think and I have learned this through years of having to grow up and accept this. It is important to share because back in the day, I probably wouldn’t have even shared this with anybody. But what I found for me and this my friend, my specific friend that I have.

In that moment is my friend Davina who we’ve talked about before. She’s out of New Mexico. The reason I love sharing with Davina when I’m in that and just in the pit of the dark, can’t even see a light is that the Davina creates room for my emotions. She creates space for my emotions. She’s not trying to get me to quickly say what’s wrong. I think you have friends that have gifts and different

Things that they do you have in your circle of trust whether that’s a combination of your partner your friends and your family members they all have their unique gifts and I advise when you’re in that like pit of the dark find a friend that allows you to just word vomit it out. Yeah. I’m just get like all meet creates room for the emotions to come out without the need to quickly help you identify.

A problem or quickly jump to solution where we don’t have any identified problem. The problem solver, the rescue or the savior. Would, I would stay away from that personality type at that point. I would find this person that’s actually comfortable hearing their friend or their spouse or their family member just cry. And just say all sorts of feelings without them trying to tell them.

sShawna (07:21)

The problem solver.

sSara (07:45)

Stop the crime, it’s going to be okay, or, well, could it be this, should we do this, should we do that? Is this the problem? Is that the problem? You know, why do think this happened? Why do you think, just, they need to just allow room and space for the emotions. Right. Cause you’re not ready for it. And the part that is so important of getting this right, especially I’m thinking of our clients when I’m saying this is they could sell you the wrong problem or the wrong solution. And then you’re going down a complete different

sShawna (07:57)

Cause you’re not ready for

sSara (08:14)

Pathway and you have to be a little protective over what your next step would be when you’re in such a vulnerable state because you as human beings, we want to find a relief point so quickly. So I think a lot of us that are shares naturally so badly, we just want somebody to tell you what to do in that point. We just tell you what’s wrong with what’s wrong with me, Sean. What’s wrong with me?

sShawna (08:41)

And that’s really hard for someone like you and I who are fixers. Yes. We are problem solvers. We want to jump in and do it. And what your friend, Davina, is doing for you, I found so hard to learn how to do for other people because I am the fixer. But just being OK in that space of we’re really uncomfortable and we’re going to sit here for.

sSara (08:44)

Yes.

Yes. Yes. And it’s, and it’s, that’s not for everybody to just sit with somebody that they love being in pain and just letting that sit, just letting them be just let, let’s have that awkward moment without trying to band-aid it quickly. Right. And I mean, your profession, you’re a, you’ve been a litigator for 20 years. Nobody can expect you to sit there with that. Your job is to fix.

sShawna (09:31)

It’s

Really hard for me if somebody expects me to hold that space I really have to hold myself back So I love the fact that you know You’re not defining your friends as one is good and when it’s bad but one is there for this particular part of opening in the dark and The other person wouldn’t be good for you in that situation

sSara (09:53)

I also think it’s important to find people in that specific scenario, somebody that is a part of me that wants to not dump on other people as well, because that’s a big part of, you’re the same way. That’s a big reason why I hold back. Have such a hard time dumping anything that feels heavy on somebody else is be careful you have a friend that can carry that energy, right? That can hold on to that.

Because first, I also have friends that do carry energy. And that would be, I could truly put them into funk for days if I just dumped that on them, right?

sShawna (10:30)

Exactly. And I do think it’s important to recognize that within each other’s friendships or even just tell each other, right? I will feel the pain with you or For you I’m just here for you. What’s your comfort level? So we’ve started out with this is the first one. The first one is just sitting there in the pain with yes What’s opening that up?

sSara (10:40)

Right? I’m just here.

Okay, so once you’ve kind of released the actual physical expression of the emotions, right? Like you cried yourself dry or paced back and forth enough or lost enough sleep. I think then you are at a point where you can actually start thinking about what is the problem. I think

People so quickly think they know what the actual problem is when they’re sad or they’re in a dark place. I don’t think 90 % of the time we truly know what the problem is. It personally, it’s one of the things I love the most about what we do. I love in family law, hearing the clients out and helping them articulate with clarity, what is the actual problem we’re solving?

And it’s so fascinating how we start in one place in these conversations. And by the time we’ve had a very thought provoking conversation and we’ve dug deep, we come out at another end. And that’s one of my favorite things that we do here, by the way.

sShawna (11:57)

Absolutely and I’m not in a long because one of the things that I try to lawyers as I grow the associates is listen to the question that they’re not actually. Yes listen to see whether actually not saying and be a little provocative and asking this question.

sSara (12:08)

The answer.

Yes, exactly be a Give permission for the conversation to go there. Yes, so The the friend that I have a friend or the person again It could be a spouse or your family member whatever that I think you need at this stage Where you’re ready to find clarity on why am I here? Where am I like? What is the position I find myself in as far as like the problem I’m surrounded by

Again, I think it’s somebody that’s not jumping to find solutions, but somebody that’s a challenger. I think I’m that friend for a lot of people. I may not be the best person on just creating space for the emotions long enough. I think I can do that, but I’m not, probably not the best at it. But I’m, this is the part where I think I have a unique gift to anybody in my life, where you come to me heavy, I can help you identify the problem.

Right. And that comes from being a challenger, right? Because usually people are going to come with you and come at you and say a lot of things that they’re identifying as the problem and challenging. Is that is that really the truth? Is that really what you believe? Is that really what happened? Right. Is. Deeper.

sShawna (13:36)

Digging a little bit

Past the emotions, right? So first you’ve you’ve identified the person who’s gonna sit in the motion And then you’ve identified the next person who’s going to actually challenge those emotions

sSara (13:50)

Going to challenge the emotions and make space for the solution. But they’re not going to find, tell you the solution. They are going to make space for the solution by the fact that they’re challenging the truth to you can see the problem. And they could be the same person. Honestly, I think I’m not saying that all every stage of you unraveling your darkness has to come from different people. I just think that.

sShawna (13:53)

Yes.

sSara (14:17)

To strategically strategy in order to do it in a way where you don’t end up in a side road somewhere and completely going the wrong down the wrong path, leading to something you didn’t even intend to. You have to be careful who you pick as your audience as you’re going through this. And some people are closed completely and they’re not even sharing because this is such an overwhelming thing to them to even think about sharing. And then there’s some people who share to everybody.

I think this is a happy place to find yourself where you’re sharing and opening up, but you’re going towards a direction that can actually get you to the other end of this darkness.

sShawna (14:57)

And I love that the fact that you’re strategizing this for yourself when you’re not in your emotions, because you can’t do it when you’re in your So you have to do it from a place of, okay, everyone’s going to have these dark times. Everybody’s going to have these down times. What is my strategy for coming out of this dark time? For sitting in it, A, for solving it and then moving out of it. And I love how you’re approaching that from the outside.

sSara (15:05)

No.

Yes, because you’re right. I would not have been able to see the box, the instructions to the box from being inside the box. So then I have, after you’ve identified what is this actual problem that I’m facing is then articulating the solution, figuring out what you need to do to roll up your sleeves and the work you need to get yourself into doing. And I think that this point, me personally, I don’t want anybody to feel sorry for me.

I don’t need anybody that’s going to take me backwards and wanting to take me back to stage one and wants to cry there with me about it. I don’t want anybody to, I actually don’t want the challenger anymore to keep digging at the problem anymore. I just want the cheerleader. I want the cheerleader that’s like, man, you’re doing the work. You’re making the change. You’re.

Going after the thing that’s gonna solve the issue, right? Whether it’s something you wanna do different with your children, something different you wanna do in your marriage, something different you wanna do with your family members, or something different you wanna do at work. It’s a process to see the change, right? Maybe it might even be your fitness, right? You wanna do something. At that point, I want the cheerleader that checks in on me and says, you’re doing awesome, how’s it going? I want my support system.

sShawna (16:45)

You want your supporters.

sSara (16:48)

That cheerleader, I probably cannot talk to in the very beginning. Absolutely not. When I’m in that dark, dark hole where I can’t even see the problem, I don’t want the cheerleader that’s rubbing my hair and saying, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be okay. I actually want the person that might not even try to make it okay for me at all, right? Which is Davina. Davina’s not going to make anything okay for you unless she’s just going to make space for you to do that for yourself, which is one of the reasons I love her so much.

But at this stage, definitely think that’s when your cheerleader steps in, where your support system steps in. And that’s the person I want to share it with. And that person has to have some sense of positive, optimistic attitude about what it is you’re doing instead of bringing any negative energy to it.

sShawna (17:38)

So when you’re walking through your stages, and they may, like you said, be the same person or not be the same person, if they’re not the same person, do you tell them the stages you’ve already been through?

sSara (17:49)

That’s such a good question. You know, I do because I think that when you’re going to enroll somebody into something you’re going through, it is only fair to let them know what you’ve done up to this point so that you’re not wasting their time. People want people that love you. They want to help and support you and they want to see you in a good place. And it’s only fair that they want to know what happened. How did you get here?

What are you doing about it? And what is the journey? What other solutions have you tried? Right? Right. That’s some of the things I want to know when I’m helping a client out. Yes. What have we tried before we got here? And I want to know their journey before they reached us. Now, what part of that journey I’m in, I’m available and

sShawna (18:21)

The journey.

sSara (18:40)

Here for as much as possible for the part that they need me for. But knowing the full journey helps me be a better advocate on their side. If you want advocates in your friends, family and your partners, then I think you need to be vulnerable enough to share. At this point, keep in mind when you’re sharing with your cheerleader, you already you’re in a different space. You have stopped crying about it. Right. You stop pacing back and forth about it. You’ve stopped losing sleep over it. Hopefully, you know what your problem

sShawna (19:09)

You’ve identified.

sSara (19:10)

You’ve

Identified your problem, you’ve identified your solution, you’re just working it out. And the cheerleader, because the nature of the person you’ve identified to be a good cheerleader in your corner, they’re not the type that’s going to say, I want to go back to step one and figure out what your problem is. I don’t, I know. I want to go back to the place where we were sitting in a corner in the dark and crying about it.

sShawna (19:33)

Or that we were deciding which solution to pick. Yes. Right. Because with a chair leader, right, they’re going to cheer you on no matter what solution you pick. Yes. They’re not going to challenge the solution.

sSara (19:45)

So then hopefully at this point, know, you’ve out of the dark and being out of the dark means to me that you learned something. It means that I’m going to quote Alison Armstrong, who I’ve quoted many times in here. She is a wonderful coach on partnership, whether that’s in friendship and marriage and work, whatever. But one of the things she says is that when there is conflict, especially in relationships, we’re not done with the work of healing until both parties are happy that the conflict occurred to begin with. And I think that’s so profound because what that means is we didn’t just heal and say, okay, like the wound is covered back up again. We’re saying we healed to the point where we grew and became even bigger individuals from the conflict itself so that we’re actually happy this conflict occurred.

sShawna (20:42)

You remind me something. There was an interview with Stephen Colbert and I’m not sure what tragedy he was talking about, but I’m sure it was. I’m pretty sure it was a death very close to him and it may have been as a young child where he was able to say, I’m actually glad for the tragedy. And that’s kind of what I hear you’re saying. I’m actually glad for the conflict and people who are deep in their dark cannot see that.

sSara (21:00)

Mmm.

No, no. And that’s, think the person that I’m looking to lean on when I’m out of this is exactly what you said. The person who can celebrate the dark with me. And that’s to me is usually a friend that’s a grower and a learner. Somebody that will sit, I mean, I’m going to, one of my dearest friends that you know very well to Lee Hayward, her and I are, we geek out together on learning about how we solve things, how we.

Came out of something. What did we study to solve this problem? How did we learn to grow and build and develop something out of a state of conflict? And we share a lot of the same books that we read and a lot of the same thought leaders that we use in this. And that’s exactly who I would pick up the phone to at that point and be like, my God, Lee, I got to tell you about this, what I just like went through. This journey I just went through.

sShawna (22:04)

This jerk.

sSara (22:06)

What I learned from it and and Lee would probably laugh and be like, my God, that is hysterical. Like that is fantastic. And then she would geek out on all the ways that that tells me who I am and what else I can do and what that says about my abilities and leadership. And it’s fantastic.

sShawna (22:27)

Because what you don’t need right then is that person who goes upward.

sSara (22:33)

My God. You might as well punch me in the face. Because it feels like you just did so much work I did on myself. I am ready to celebrate this problem that I just had. It came out bigger than the problem itself. And if you want to pity me for it, if you want to feel sorry for me for it, will not sit well with me.

sShawna (22:55)

It sounds like you’re a believer in solving the problems as our way to grow in this life. Yes.

sSara (23:02)

Yeah. Yes. And I think that I look at it almost as you’re in a, you’re, you, when you’re first in the dark or you’re in a hard spot, it’s like you’ve entered a dark tunnel and there’s different guides that you need till you come at the end of that tunnel.

sShawna (23:19)

Yes. And I think that you’ve done a really good job of creating this roadmap, not just for yourself, but for other people to consider their own roadmaps. Your roadmap may not work for other people. They have to find their own. But I think one of the most beautiful things that I’ve heard you say is celebrating that dark once you’re out of it.

sSara (23:39)

Yes. Thank you, Jada. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Happily Ever After Divorce Podcast. If you’d to learn more, go to atlantadevorceloggroup.com forward slash resources.