Episode :1 Identifying Toxic Relationships

s Sara 00:00

s Shawna 00:28

s Sara 00:29

s Shawna 01:21

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s Shawna 02:11

s Sara 02:34

s Shawna 02:36

s Sara 03:00

s Shawna 03:10

s Sara 03:15

s Shawna 03:20

s Sara 03:27

s Shawna 03:58

It really does. And I think one of the things is that when you look at it and say, Alright, they’ve done something that I don’t like, am I gonna not say anything, am I simply going to continue to accept that thing that I don’t want. Because that resentment, that feeling has to go somewhere right here, that feeling has to go somewhere. And it’s going to come out in a way that you probably don’t want it to come out right, in a very toxic or equal energy back to that person.

s Sara 04:30

Now I was also thinking that there are relationships, I’ve had friendships, where I’ve looked back and said, You know what, this person may or may not have been toxic, but something about them triggered something toxic within me. And I don’t like the way I’m showing up here. And I don’t like the role I am playing here. And that doesn’t necessarily mean this is a toxic person. But for whatever reason, the ying and yang between me and this person and turns in,
turn something toxic on.

And I think that has been very liberating when you stop chasing a box to put that person in, you know, oh, they’re a narcissist, or they have a personality disorder or,
you know, they’re just a selfish person or they’re an asshole, you just if you let go without and just say, you know, I may just be the asshole in this relationship. And whether I want to, you know, go in and excavate what’s showing up for me or not, maybe I can just say, this relationship triggers something ugly in me that I don’t like, and I’m not mature enough, or I’m not ready yet enough to be in this. And that’s been very liberating for me to kind of look through my environment and say, you know, who and sparked something in me, that makes me want to be better, do better, and give more. And who puts me in an opposite seat? Sometimes it’s intentional, I think, from the other side, and sometimes it may not be.

s Shawna 05:56

it may not be, absolutely. I find that for myself, If there is somebody who reminds me of my mom who had a really rough relationship with, then I start acting in a very, I don’t know if it’s aggressive, or very assertive manner towards them to set like very strong boundaries. And this poor person is just probably looking at me like, what’s this person’s problem? So I have to recognize that within myself and either adjust so that I can have a good relationship with them, or simply hold them at a distance, knowing that this me is not able to have that relation with that person.

s Sara 06:34

I’m not there yet. And that’s okay. And you just man, you, you just gave me something to think about. So, again, Shawna, and I are psychiatrists. We’re not therapists. We’re not psychologists, we’re just two women in an area of law where we come across a lot of families and transitions and a lot of relationships being worked on. And we bring our own a history into it, and to kind of help and analyze and give tools, but you just said something that gave me a lot to think about, which is, perhaps when we’re triggered by somebody that brings something toxic out of us, it’s unintentional from the other side, it might just be a reminder of something in our childhood or when we’re younger, of somebody toxic that we were dealing with. Like in your case, you were describing your mom.

s Shawna 07:20

Yeah, yeah. And I think that it’s one of those things where, you know, all relationships are meant to be forever relationships, their relationships that are meant to be momentarily, right.

The spousal relationship, of course, completely different when you choose a spouse that reminds you something toxic, maybe we need some therapy to pull all of that out, right, you know, and deal with with those things. But it really could be nothing about these two people, except for the combination thereof, creates that toxicity.

s Sara 07:53

So you talked about the combination, and there’s a book and we’ve shared this book with a lot of our clients. It’s called the power of 10. And it talks about the empowerment triangle and the Drama Triangle. And basically, the book describes a triangle that it’s more or less a drama triangle, a toxic relationship. And in this triangle, in one corner, you have a victim and another corner, you have a rescuer, and other corner you have the persecutor. And what’s so brilliant about this is that each of these people are playing an equal part in this relationship. Every victim needs a persecutor so that they can stay a victim. But then they also need a rescuer to
rescue them. Every rescuer need the victim so that they can be rescue them. And they also need a persecutor to make the victim into a victim so that they can go rescue it. And so goes on for the persecutor, being a victim. And at some point, the book even describes that the victim might turn into a persecutor or might turn into a rescuer. So these aren’t even fixed positions. But this sort of what you and I are talking about where when you’re in a relationship, and you don’t like or friendship and you don’t like how you’re showing up, you may actually find yourself where you’re like, man, like this person just turns me into a persecutor, like, this
person makes me feel like a bad guy makes me actually bring out that ugly side of me or man, the rescuer is a really interesting one. And I see that a lot in family law, right? The one who says oh, well, you know, I just wanted to help him. I wanted to do this or I wanted to help her. Well, if did you want to keep them in that position, though, did the marriage only work for as long as your spouse was a victim? And you could keep rescuing them? Or did the marriage only
work for as long as you were a victim and your spouse came in and rescued you? The moment you rose above that, or your spouse rose above that, did the marriage lose its dynamic? and that I find to be sort of what we’re talking about is like, am I showing up as one of these in this relationship? Is somebody inviting me to be their persecutor, but so that they can be a victim, and I’m accepting that challenge.

s Shawna 10:02

And there you just hit the nail on the head on a lot of relationships. And sometimes it is an original age difference where they’ve set up this dynamic, the Savior, right? The icon, the the captain savior, that’s their role, right? That’s where they get their identity and that makes them feel good is I’m able to come in and rescue this person and take care of this person. Well, what happens when that victim, the person they need to be rescued, no longer wants to be a victim, right? Who wants to stand on their own two feet and say, No, I’m a whole person. I don’t need you to rescue me anymore. So the rescuer now feels devalued, right? They no longer have their role that was their personality, that is their whole point and being in this relationship was to rescue. And so there’s a lot of an identity crisis going on between this person who wants to get out of being the victim, and the person who doesn’t want to stop being the rescuer.

s Sara 11:00

Yes. And I’ve actually seen that, in friendships where a rescuer turns into the persecutor when the victim no longer when their victim, the person who was playing the role of the victim says, you know, this role is no longer for me. And or they turn into the victim because then some they have to stay in that triangle. That’s where they get their special from. And I think it’s so important to identify these and recognize them because what we see a lot of times for people in family law after their divorce, like, you know, he’s just, he’s such a persecutor he was so you know, us, not kind to me was not taking care of me. I have seen this in so many instances
Shawna, with the women who were playing the victim role to a husband that was a narcissist, and a lot of times legit a narcissist. The next marriage or the next relationship that they jump into, is a complete 180. And they go find the rescuer. Yeah, right? How common is this cliche?

s Shawna 11:56

So much that it’s a cliche.

s Sara 12:00

answered my own question.

s Shawna 12:05

Unfortunately, I think if people don’t work through, through therapist ,again we’re not, but through therapy through self exploration of Who do I want to show up and be? Do I want to show up and be that equal? And I’m gonna tell you, there’s some women and some men, I’m not going to generalize this, but there are some people out there who they never want to stop playing victim. Yeah, that’s their role. Right? And in fact, if they are not allowed to play victim, they’ll create a persecutor in some instances to say, oh, no, I must be the victim. That is the entire identity that I have. So I really do think that when you are transitioning, right, and we recognize these things, it’s so good. Not a to jump from relationship to relationship. stay alone for a while. Yeah. As Julia Roberts said, in one of her movies, you know, learn what kind of eggs you like to eat.

s Sara 13:04

That was like a pretty woman sequel or something. Love that movie.

s Shawna 13:08

Runaway Bride! yeah, so it’s, but it’s one of those things, I think you really have to say, Who do I want to be in this next relationship? Before you even have started?

s Sara 13:19

Right. Right. And I was looking at, I was Googling, of course, you know, signs for how you know, you’re in a toxic relationship before you and I jumped on. And it’s listed things like envy, jealousy, disrespect, dishonesty, resentment, lack of support, controlling, you know, I kept thinking like, these are just symptoms. These the, of course, symptoms, signs, same thing to lead to a diagnosis. But you can go from relationship to relationship at any point, you could have these even in the best relationships, these signs and symptoms can show up from moment to moment, because it’s not to say that even the best relationships don’t have their
toxic moments, even the best relationships don’t have a moment where you are playing the victim card and your spouse has to come in as a rescuer. And it might feel good for five minutes before you can move past that and say, Okay, what’s really going on? But I think what we’re saying which I find a lot more truth, for me, in my heart, in my marriage, and in my friendships and relationships is, how am I showing up? If there is envy or jealousy? How am I coming to an agreement on that? If there’s this disrespect, how am I tolerating this? Why am I tolerating this? The power of Ted book doesn’t just give us the Drama Triangle, it also gives us the empowerment triangle of what does this triangle look like if it was a healthy empowering relationship? which I love. it actually, instead of the victim is says, What if the victim was the creator? meaning instead of just taking things as they come being a life occurring to you, you’re actually creating life you’re creating your reality you’re you’re an active participants, an accountable participant in what’s going on around you versus things just happening to you. The rescuer becomes the challenger. So instead of just saying, Oh my God, I am so sorry, Shawna, I’m so sorry. All these terrible things happen to you poor you like, let me take care of all your
paints like asking you, well, Shawna, why do you think this is showing up for you? Like ask a challenging question? The persecutor becomes the coach, instead of just pushing somebody down, and keeping them sort of below you so that you can keep them in their place? What if instead, you influence them and gave them tools and gave them the resources so that they can rise above and empower themselves, which I think is really, really cool. It’s one of my favorite books that we typically give to our clients when they end the relationship so that they can go on to their next one in a healthier way. Do you think there’s anything else here to say?

s Shawna 16:00

I think that if you identify with any of these, the rescuer, and I want to tell you, quite frankly, I identify with all of them at some point. Yeah, in my life, for sure. And it’s hard to say, yes, I’ve been the persecutor. But there are times when I’m definitely happen. And I think that just recognizing that looking at it and saying, what role Am I playing? And how can we change this? Because it either you change the relationship? Or you move on from there? Yes,

s Sara 16:29

yes. And I think that I’ve definitely grew up being the rescuer, you know, and you I’m sure, you have to just with a lot of what we’ve dealt with as being children who very quickly matured, to help with our parents and help with everything life transitions our families had, I very much played the rescuer. But through a lot of personal development, realize at my core, I’m a challenger. So it’s really interesting to watch this and, you know, completely can empathize with having been the victim at some point. But I, it’s funny, because today, when I come across somebody that has a victim mentality, I have to watch myself because I can turn into the
persecutor, they trigger me, they trigger me really badly. And if it wasn’t for a lot of self awareness and work on myself, I had to realize like, oh, no, no, no, no, like, I gotta, I don’t like how I’m showing up. This isn’t part of myself, I do not enjoy, this is not me being in a state of giving, can I turn into a challenger and challenge the victim to become a creator? If so great. Let’s continue this and let’s continue to give and help the this person. If not, I gotta walk away.

s Shawna 17:40

I think it was really important point. Because you recognizing that in yourself, I recognize that myself sometimes. And sometimes I’m the rescuer, depending on the role that I find myself in. But changing it, not always does that victim want to change stop being the victim. And those are the times when you have to say, Okay, I’ve done everything I’m going to do and I’m gonna walk away and knowing that that person may still identify you as the persecutor because they still won’t play that victim. That doesn’t mean that to you are

s Sara 18:12

absolutely there, you’re there. If they’re identifying themselves as a victim, and that kind of sits and feels good. You got to let them have it. You got to walk away. And some people it’s not, it’s due to lack of awareness. And as a challenger, you can bring an awareness to it. But as a rescuer or a persecutor, you’re not you’re letting them go dig deeper into that role, and you’re giving more validity to that and you’re not being of any service to anybody. We will have another part to this where we’re actually talking about talk about how to get out of it, which will be fun. today, we just kind of want to talk about how to identify it, which I think it’s hysterical
that we had the exact same thoughts. Doesn’t surprise me either. Thanks for listening to the happily ever after divorce podcast. If you’d like to learn more, go to Atlantadivorcelawgroup.com forward slash resources