s

Sara 00:05

Empowered people make informed decisions that lead to living a life without regret. This is Sara Khaki and Shawna Woods from Atlanta Divorce Law Group. And this is the Happily Ever After Divorce Podcast. Welcome to another episode of the Happily Ever After Divorce Podcast. I am Sara Khaki and I am joined by our managing partner from Atlanta Divorce Law Group, Shawna Woods. All right, Shawna, today we are going to talk about relationship power dynamics.

And when I was thinking about this episode, while you and I were kind of in our own corners, thinking through what we wanted to say about this, I really felt like this is really talking about role play in relationships, like the roles we take on in our families, in our marriages, in our friendships at work. And just part of our growth is the different roles we take on to make certain relationships work.

But what do you think when I say the word relationship power dynamics?

s

Shawna 01:06

I think very similar things. Think of a very traditional in a marriage, if you have an older person who marries someone significantly younger and that younger person happens to be closer to the age of 18 or quite young. That’s the first kind of power dynamic that I think of. And I do think it’s role play in a certain way. It’s not as if you’re faking what you’re doing, but you’re accepting a role in that relationship, whether you are.

A mentor mentee relationship, whether you feel like you’re on equal footing or is it a power dynamic that gets set up where it’s more of a parent child, even though it is of people that are in a adult relationship.

sSara (01:50)

And I think we learn the role play in relationships from a very young age. This is part of the work I was fortunate enough to do with my coach and mentor, David Nagel. ANd he taught us how as A young child, in order to get along with our family, to get along in the power structure of our family, and to belong in there and feel safe with there, we accepted a role.

And the role could have been, the nice one, you’re the agreeable one, you’re the rebel, you’re the golden child, you’re the peacemaker, you’re the loud one, you’re the party animal, you’re the shy one. And we accept that role because that’s what’s going to make our family unit work. And at some point, we take that role and we might evolve it or we may mirror it exactly and bring it into our friendships.

Right? If you have a circle of friends growing up, what’s your role in that circle of friends? And how is that circle of friendship working? Especially among women, right? If you have, the famous saying always is, you have more than two women in a group, you know, there’s a power dynamic that’s formed that almost has to be respected in order for it to work out. Now, whether that’s true or not, I don’t know.

But I can definitely say that some women groups do feel that way, that you have to play a certain role in order for the power dynamics of that friendship group to work. And where did we learn that? Well, according to what I studied with David Nagel, it really comes from learning it as a young child of how can I fit in with my family and not be abandoned by my family from a very instinctual safety place as a child where you’re

When you cry, how do you get your parents attention? And that’s based on who your siblings are and what roles that they take. So what role did they leave for you if you’re not the first born, right? Or if you are the first born and more children come along, what role do you have to take in order to bring those little ones into the fold as well? Does this bring anything up for you?

sShawna (03:58)

Yeah, absolutely. And I was just thinking about how we all attribute certain attributes to the firstborn, the middle child, the baby, and they tend to be true and we can joke about them. But what you’re saying makes complete sense because it is a role that they’re stepping into. And I do think that as we grow and leave our families as we do and form our own friendships and families,

That gives us the opportunity to explore roles that were not in that dynamic. And sometimes that can be interesting as you go back into your family unit for visits and they’re putting you back in a role that you no longer fit in.

sSara (04:37)

And you’ve all and you believe you’ve outgrown. Absolutely. And that’s where the awkwardness, the resistance of those family Christmases, Thanksgiving’s or birthdays and holidays comes in is when you almost feel energetically this heaviness days before you need to go to those old dynamics that you feel like you’ve outgrown where you’re like, OK, I don’t know if I want to wear the shoe of the golden child right now. I don’t know if I want to wear the shoe of.

sShawna (04:40)

Absolutely.

sSara (05:06)

The rebel right now or they’re all going to speak to me, you know, from Sara 2002. And I’m, I don’t want to be Sara 2002 right now. I don’t have the energetic space to even play along because we’re talking about a lot of times these are subconscious. Think as a child, it’s happening subconsciously that you’re playing these roles. But when you turn into an adult and you become aware of them, like Shawna’s saying, and you outgrow them and then

You take on new power dynamics or new roles, you might become aware of the role you were playing in another unit or in another power dynamic. And then you feel the resistance of going back there because of the energy drain it takes to go into those roles.

sShawna (05:49)

And not only the energy drain that it takes to go in those roles, but the dynamic of them seeing you as one dimension. Right. I was seen kind of as the disruptor. Shocking, I know. But I was really, you know, I challenged status quo. So in my father’s eyes, that came off as angry. So even when he, he still describes me as an angry individual.

And it’s funny because I don’t feel like I’ve fit in that role in a good 30 years. Right. And so it is, it’s an interesting dynamic to which you walk back into. And because he’s treating me that way, I sort of become angry. And so it is one of those things, I think as an adult, you really have to be aware of these power dynamics and walking back into it and going, I no longer fit in this role. Can we readjust?

sSara (06:23)

You’re right.

That is so interesting.

And I think that’s the first step is becoming aware of it. I mean, I don’t think without the personal development journey I went through, I could have become aware of the roles I was playing as a child to be fitting with my family unit. I very much was the pleaser, the golden child, the good one, the agreeable one. And

It is in my nature and I think we have these things truly. We can encompass so many parts, right? Like you said, we’re not one dimensional, we’re dynamic. But tHe difference is using those parts of yourself in a conscious choice place of this is what I want to provide right now. This is what I want to contribute. This is what my loved ones need from me right now, or this is what I need right now to embody versus

Role-playing, stepping into those roles just to feel safe and feel like you belong, which doesn’t come from a conscious choice. It comes very much from a instinctual, am I safe? Am I okay here? What am I accepted here? And what’s interesting is we, as adults, if we’re not aware of this, we don’t become aware of the rules we’ve taken on. We try to recreate them in our work environment. And we also try to recreate them in our

And that the families we start building on our own. I had a business coach, his name was Henry, and years ago he told me that be very aware of how employees in your firm are looking to recreate the mother-father relationships inside the firm. Be aware of how you recreate your own family dynamics inside your firm.

Who’s playing the role that your dad used to play? Who’s playing the role that your mom used to play? Who’s playing the role that your brother used to play? And how are you feeling safe inside your work environment by holding onto the golden child, the agreeable one, or in your case, the disruptor, right?

sShawna (08:52)

You said that and just kind of triggered some memories in me about people placing you in roles, right? Like you said, the mother role or the father role. And because of my role in the firms that I am here, obviously, and in other firms that I have led.

I have had people look at me as a mother figure. That’s not always great. Most of the time it’s not. And I’m thinking about this one particular individual who had a horrible relationship with her mother. And when she put me in that role, it created tension between the two of us. And I really had to be the one who distanced and was like, I’m not stepping into this.

sSara (09:33)

I’m not playing this power dynamic with you.

sShawna (09:36)

Right. This is a relationship of business, not of a familial.

sSara (09:42)

And then where, you know, most of our listeners, this is impacting them the most is at home. Yes. And that’s where the awareness really needs to kick in of what roles are you bringing into your relationships at home, whether it’s a very traditional nuclear family, you know, husband and wife and children and what roles dynamics is your spouse bringing into the home. And I think a lot of

Marriages or relationships or partnerships that are struggling could gain a lot if they were just to become aware of how the power dynamics from home are coming in from their childhood home is now playing a part in creating tension in the current home. But here’s what’s fascinating, Sean. I find this a lot in consultations with our clients. The partner they pick, and we will have an episode on the partner you pick, the partner they pick

A lot of times if they’re not aware of their own role play is designed to work with the power dynamic from their childhood. Absolutely. Because it’s what makes them feel safe and it’s the known and it’s the devil they know.

sShawna (10:56)

Well, we’ve heard this a lot. You marry a man like your father, you marry a woman like your mother, right? It’s that connection that they feel sort of safe in, even if it’s not really creating a safe dynamic, because comfortable in a lot of people’s minds equals safe.

sSara (11:14)

And that’s so brilliant. And that’s exactly the truth on our subconscious tends to go for what it knows to find safety. The unknown could truly be a better place, but if the subconscious is not, does not know what it is, it’s uncomfortable, it’s unsafe, run away from it. And so we could truly be turning away better relationships, better partnerships, better friendships, because they require

Us to step out of the role play that we know in our subconscious is very comfortable with. Again, going back to David Nagel, I remember my cousin and I, my cousin Shadi, who would not mind me mentioning her on the podcast. She’s a friend of the firm, but she, her and I went to one of David’s events and we grew up in a very tight knit family. We grew up like sisters because our moms are sisters and they raised us together. So she played the rebel.

Hard and fast she played the rebel. Like she carried that flag for the whole family and I played the golden good child hard and fast and I played that. I held that flag high for the family. And I remember when I was telling David like this was my role in our family. Shadi sitting there nodding her head like her, know, yep, yep, that’s that was her. She was the good one. She was the goody two shoe. And then, you know, Shadi gets up to the mic and just like huffs and puffs and you know, pulls up her chest and is like.

Well, David, I was the rebel. Like I did not play the role play Sara did. I was the rebel. And David was like, no, you very much played along. You just, you played on the same spectrum that Sara did. You just took the other end of it. And Sara took this end of it because that’s what the roles were available in your family unit for it all to work. And then I remember just like.

Because I always looked at Shadia as somebody that was refusing the roleplay, refusing the power dynamics of the family because she went along to her own tune and she rebelled against everything and David just brought us both to our knees. Like, no. Rebelling against the system, rebelling against the family, rebelling against the power dynamic of the family is just as much roleplay as the one that’s being agreeable to it.

sShawna (13:36)

And yOu have to wonder how much of this is personality, Nature versus nurture versus what you’re needing to step into. Because I will tell you at my heart, I’m definitely a challenger still. I absolutely want to challenge you in perspectives, but there are so many other facets to us than the roles that we were given in our family dynamics.

sSara (13:39)

Nature vs.

sShawna (14:00)

ANd if we don’t explore this and we don’t have the courage, which a lot of our clients, when they come to us, that’s where they’re finding their courage, to step out of these roles that they’ve been playing basically their entire lives.

sSara (14:15)

And I think that that’s, I think that’s really important to know because this sent to disqualify the role, right? Because becoming aware of the role doesn’t mean you stop in the role. You may just need to make a conscious choice of this is what’s needed, right? So to your point about a lot of people agreeing to these roles and playing a part in it, we had a client years ago who lived abroad and married her husband at the age of 19.

He was an American citizen. He brought her to America once they got married and got her a citizenship. He was probably 20 years older than her. He had an established life in America, so he funded her through college. He funded her higher education. So she became a good earner on her own, in her own right. And at this point had lived in the United States for…

15 years earning money on her own and learning the language and really adapting and She had come into this marriage in a very paternal place like her dad had died when she was at a young age She heard her mom had taken care of her her her of them each other and then so when this man is the older man comes in when she’s 19 and brings her to

A developed country where there’s all this opportunity for her is very much her caretaker in a very paternal way. And when she is now a woman with her own mind, with her own higher education and ability to produce for herself, she didn’t need the safety of this paternal caretaker. She needed the partnership of, see you, I’m interested in your mind and what you have to say, and I’m interested in what you have to say.

How we can grow together now. And he just could not get past that. He could not get past the paternal part. And she wanted to break that power dynamic. And it led to them having some very miserable years till she was finally at her wit’s end and was like, I can’t be in this role anymore. I need true partnership. And she had to break the cycle through divorce.

sShawna (16:31)

That is not an uncommon one. Right. Right. We do see this and we do see it very much so when there is that large age gap that I had mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, when the paternal person never wants to stop being in that role, but now they have a grown up. Right. They have somebody who is now on equal footing and it doesn’t have to be an age gap. It can just be a simple power dynamic. It may be money, you know, education.

I think it really is one of those things that’s one of the hardest things to break away from because there’s, like you said, there’s comfort and safety in what we know and we’re walking into this unknown and that’s okay.

sSara (17:17)

And I I felt that what she did was so brave because that’s exactly what she did. Imagine having this, this person taking over the role of your father in your life and basically bringing you to a brand new country and supporting you through your education and all of that. And when you want to grow with them and want that, want to grow the partnership beyond that paternal child relationship, they are just not available for it.

If that’s what you’ve known for a long time, to be willing to step out of that box and say, I want to meet you outside of this box. Will you join me outside? And when they say no, you have a decision to make.

sShawna (17:59)

You absolutely have a decision to make and it’s okay to feel guilty for leaving that.

sSara (18:05)

Is exactly how she felt, Shawna. She felt that she was turning her back on her caretaker, on the person who had gotten her here. And that was very painful. And I think that has to be respected and appreciated how hard that must have been. It’s not an easy choice.

sShawna (18:19)

Absolutely, and

Admitting that you feel guilty for something that’s not necessarily your fault, right? But you feel that you owe this person something, right? And you do owe them respect, right? You owe them respect in leaving the relationship. You don’t owe them your life.

sSara (18:40)

100%, 100%. And I think that’s the bottom line is How much life are you willing to give to stay in this power dynamic? That’s exactly what you’re giving up, Sean. I think it’s how much of your life you’re giving up. And that’s a conscious decision. I don’t think it’s for me or for us or for anybody to say what the right decision is. There is no right or wrong, but it’s a matter of, and this is what we really strive for at the firm.

Is bringing up what you’re giving up in this decision making point that you’re at. And you could completely choose to stay put, but just be aware of the choice you’re making. And there’s bravery sometimes and even staying put, right? But then you have to be willing to accept that that’s, this is what the down the line is going to look like or not look like.

But when you’re at that critical moment, knowing exactly what am I giving up to stay put? What am I giving up to move forward? And how much life am I willing to give up for either decision? Before we go through, because I want us to go through, how can you actually do this? How can you get a relationship out of one power dynamic into another one? Right? The how I think is really hard. But I wanted to go through some other power dynamics that I had.

Thought of, I think the parent child one’s really interesting, just kind of already touched on it on the paternal one. But we will have an episode discussing about this as well. But when you outgrow, like being the child to your parents, right? Or you outgrow your parents, parenting you, they’re always be your parents biologically or legally. But at some point to adulthood, they are

Your relative, they’re not necessarily your parent. And outgrowing that, thought that’s a fascinating one.

sShawna (20:40)

It really is and you know i’m experiencing it from both ways yes my daughter being the age that she is she’s growing she’s you know professional capable woman who is living her own life. I still feel that i parent her you know in some aspects and then in some aspects it’s definitely more of a friendship yes it’s an interesting thing to watch grow and it’s natural.

sSara (21:05)

Well, talk about that because you do have a really beautiful relationship with your daughter and it’s grown into a friendship. And usually I think these things become, this might be judgy on the parents, but I will go there. I think typically it’s the parents that withhold the growth of the relationship of going there, right? Of allowing it to go from parent child to adult relatives or to two friends.

How did you make way for that? How did you allow for Sara to step into your friend and your relative instead of your child that you need to take care of and you need to approve of their decisions?

sShawna (21:47)

So I’m still navigating that. I haven’t perfected it yet. But I do think one of those things is recognizing that their choices and their decisions are not necessarily a reflection on your choices and your decisions, right? It’s not that I believe she’s making bad choices or wrong decisions. I think she’s a wonderful human being who’s a very intelligent woman.

But I have to allow her to be her. We are not the same individual. Think too many parents, when they try to parent adult children, are doing it because they’re afraid of what other people are thinking of them when their children makes decisions. And so I think stepping back and realizing I’ve done a really good job of bringing this person to adulthood, and now my job is to let them be the adult.

sSara (22:40)

Right.

sShawna (22:41)

Now that does not mean that she doesn’t come to me or I don’t give advice or ask even just thought provoking questions sometimes. At the end of the day though, if she’s not in aligned with my thinking, that’s okay.

sSara (22:58)

And what I’m hearing is when you have a child that you’re responsible for, not responsible to, you’re actually responsible for this minor. You make a lot of guidance and leadership and caretaking decisions from a place of their safety. And when you have an adult child as you do, is their safety the first thing that comes to mind when you are making these decisions for them?

sShawna (23:28)

That’s funny that you say that because I will tell you because I am single and because as close we are, we still share each other’s location. Okay. So safety is, I’m not going to say it’s still on the table. What is not on the table is dictation. Know, I know where she is when she is, she knows where I am when I am. I don’t get to tell her where she’s at anymore. It’s like, no, that’s dangerous. Come home. Right. The difference is.

And acknowledgement of you get to be you, right? Whoever that you is in particular. And when you’re looking at it, you’re not, not only are you no longer in that complete protection mode, right? I have the control. It is. It’s nice to know that she’s got my back too. She wants to know where I’m. I can lean on her.

sSara (24:24)

You can lean on her as

sShawna (24:26)

Right? If I say, Hey, I just gotten into an Uber and I’m feeling a little iffy, you know, watch where I’m going. Right? That kind of thing. So it is more of an equalization.

sSara (24:39)

Love that. That’s beautiful. So these are some of the other relationships where interesting power dynamics come up that are it can be difficult to outgrow or you’re ready to outgrow them, but the other person kind of keeps you put or wants to keep you put mentor and mentee. We see this all the time where the mentee starts outgrowing the mentor and the mentor who is wonderful giving and loving starts

Having issues with the mentee sort of becoming their equal. So I think that’s an interesting one to watch both from the mentor perspective and the mentee for the mentor to also kind of watch themselves. Whoa, what is showing up for me right now that I cannot see past this person reporting up to me in a certain way. I think siblings, younger and older siblings is a fascinating one. Mine and my brother’s relationship has flip-flopped several times. He’s four years older than me.

I’ll go back to my cousin Shadi that was like my older sister growing up. I’m her older sister now for sure. She is, I won’t say how many years older than me, she’ll kill me, but I’m very much her older sister now just because she’s younger spirited. And that relationship has flown beautifully. Know, when, whatever the friendship, whatever each one of us has needed, we’ve always been there to provide it for each other, whether it means I’m the older sister.

Taking care of her or she’s the older sister taking care of me. I think also the office relationships where you have a manager-subordinate relationship and the subordinate grows and matures and gets a position too that is of equal with their manager and how that plays out. I think again, all of these have a timeline and they have a time limit. If we’re all growing,

And we’re all nurturing each other’s growth and loving on each other, there’s a point where they all outgrow their phase that they’re in or the power dynamic they’re in. Again, well, there’s a lot of friendships that this happens with as well. Shawna, how do you get past a certain power dynamic and take the relationship to the next phase? So if you do have, for instance, the…

You talked about the parent-child one, but yOu have a marriage that’s very much based on a the rescuer relationship and the one that needs saving. How can two people get past their power, their current power dynamics, their current role playing once they become aware of it?

sShawna (27:18)

Well, I it takes the both of the parties to want to write. You both have to be willing to change this power dynamic. But I think part of it is acknowledging, right? That’s the first thing. And I acknowledge that we have this power dynamic. My truth is I’m no longer fitting in this power dynamic. I am being honest with you and how I feel. I think this power dynamic needs to change. And I know my value.

So that if I don’t have this power dynamic change, I know what I am willing to do. Right. I value myself enough to say I can move on from this relationship if it’s no longer fitting my needs.

sSara (28:01)

So I think that everything you’re saying comes from a place of true love. Cause the relationships that I think can out, can do what you just prescribe is where at the foundation there really is love and respect. And there’s a desire to your point from both parties to keep this relationship and that desire to keep the love, to keep the relationship, to keep the respect.

Outweighs the benefits people are getting from the power play, right? The benefit I can get from being in a relationship with you and receiving love from you and giving love to you outweighs my need to play the victim card.

sShawna (28:48)

Absolutely, it’s about do I love this person as a whole do I see them as a whole do I see all the facets of their personality do I appreciate them or do I only appreciate what they can give me in this power dynamic

sSara (29:03)

So I read a quote somewhere that said something like, I’m going to butcher the quote, but I’m going to get to the heart of it. If you lose something because you can’t change enough to make it work, you never had it to begin with. So I’m butchering the quote, but an example I can give to make, hopefully bring this home is there’s, can think of friendships where the power dynamic no longer worked for me. Right. And when I stepped out of that,

The friendship didn’t work anymore. And what that tells me is that I never truly had that friendship because true friendship is based on true love and true mutual respect. So one thing I can say is that if you come to break a power dynamic that is not serving you, it’s not serving the relationship, it’s not serving the other person, and it is based on a lack of awareness and it’s based on a false need for safety.

Versus growth and you come to bring awareness to it and you come to break it and it does break the whole relationship altogether, you never truly had that. You never really truly had that relationship. You just had a false role play. And I think that’s where we find a lot of our clients who are doing the work. What I mean by that is doing the work of therapy, doing the work of self-awareness, doing the work of self-responsibility.

And engaging their partner to do the same, to break through these power dynamics and these role plays. And at the end of it, the other party refuses to. And then they’re like, you know what? I don’t choose this anymore.

sShawna (30:45)

Pretty much that is where they find themselves with us.

sSara (30:47)

That’s right. All right. Thank you so much, Shawna. Thank you.

sShawna (30:50)

Thank you.